tonight we are learning more about the massacre that happened down the road from where i'm standing in newtown, connecticut. tonight as we continue msnbc's coverage of the elementary school shooting, heartbreaking new information as officials late today release the names and ages of 26 victims inside sandy hook elementary. 20 of those victims, as you probably know by now, were children. 12 girls, 8 boys, all six adults were women. here are their names in alphabet cal order. charlotte bacon, 6 years old. daniel barden, 7. rachel davino, 29. olivia engel, 6. josephine gay, 7.

ana marquez-green, 6. so was dylan hockley. dawn hochsprung, 47. she was the school principal. madeline hsu, 6 years old. so was catherine hubbard and chase kowalski. jesse lewis was 6, too. as was james mattioli. grace mcdonnell, 7. anne marie murphy, 52. emilie parker, 6. jack pinto and noah pozner, 6. caroline previdi, 6. jessica rekos, 6. avielle richman, 6. lauren russ sue, 30. marry sherlach, 56. victoria soto, 27. benjamin wheeler and allison wyatt were also just years old. medical examiner wayne carver said all the victims were shot multiple times with a high-power rifle. >> i've been at this for a third

of a century. and it's my sensibilities may not be the average man. but this is probably the worst i've seen. >> contrary to earlier reports, the gunman took three guns into the school. two semi-automatic pistols and an assault rifle. the alleged shooter, adam lanza took his own life at scene. his mother's body was found at her home in newtown. but investigators have not established any connection between nancy lanza and the school. a motive has not been revealed, though investigators say they are piecing together the puzzle now. >> our investigators at the crime scene, the school and secondarily at the secondary crime scene that we discussed where the female was located deceased did produce some very good evidence in this investigation that our investigators will be able to use and hopefully painting the

complete picture as to how and more importantly why this occurred. >> police are also looking into a report of an altercation, perhaps between adam lanza and school officials on thursday, but that is not confirmed. so far they say they just don't have that information. that's part of the investigation that is ongoing. town officials, meantime, thanked the nation for the outpouring of support but are asking for the privacy of the town's residents. >> i ask that you help us in this healing process. please treat our community with kindness. please know we have suffered a terrible loss and we need your respect on this healing journey. i turn to you as parents, as siblings, as caring people to know that your words and your actions can help us on this healing journey or you can hinder us.

>> also trying to help his state to heal, the governor dan malloy, who talked to the residents tonight. >> too often we focus on what divides us as a people instead of what bins us as human beings. what we saw yesterday were those bonds. that sense of community. in the coming days, we will rely on that which we have been taught and that which we inherently believe, that we have faith for a reason, and that faith is god's gift to us all. those educators, and those innocent little boysnd girls were taken from their families far too soon. let us all hope and pray those children are now in a place where that innocence will forever be protected. may god bless you, and may god bless those 27 people. may god bless their families and friends. and may the pain their loved ones feel be some day absorbed

by the love of all mankind. >> and joining me now is a senior from newtown high school and heard shots before racing to the school where his sister was. tell us, you're just at home. it's a regular day. what do you hear? >> the first thing we heard was a call from our neighbor who said she heard gunshots. my mother and i heard something along the line of gunshots. >> but it didn't quite register? >> it did not. as soon as we heard the sirens, our first instinct was to go to the school. >> what goes through your mind. your sister is how old? >> she's 9. >> so your little sister, you know s at that school. >> yes. >> what are you thinking? >> i didn't know what to expect when i got there. again, we're a small community. we don't get much crime.

we didn't really think much of it at first. but as we entered the dickenson drive towards the school and saw the state troopers, we knew there was a big problem. >> i assume you started immediately asking questions. what did they tell you? >> there was nobody there to tell us much. we were there in the early stages. there were not many state troopers there, and very few parents. one parent said there's a shooting, there's a shooting, but we couldn't register it at that moment in time. >> give us a scene of how the scene starts to unfold, because you were one of the first people who arrived there. >> right. the first thing i saw personally was there were two females that were carried out in the arms of the stateme trooper, it was a horrifying scene. >> adults or children? >> children. children, unfortunately. there's a third child that eventually came out that had blood all over her face, but i do not believe it was her blood.

i believe it was the blood of other children it was gruesome and very horrifying scene. >> at that point you're with your mom. and you don't know what's happened to your sister. >> yeah. i mean, it was 30 minutes before i found my sister. between the time i found my sister and i saw those other, you know, little children. and, you know, words can't describe what was racing through my mind. i was always thinking the worst. it was just the worst feeling i can ever describe. >> what was the conversation like between you and your mom at that point? >> it was screaming. there was no sense of conversation. you know, there was no sense of security. it was just a very hopeless feeling. you know, there was -- my mom was pulling her hair out. she was going crazy. everyone was going crazy. >> by this point, because the reverse 911 call had gone out, were other parents starting to arrive? >> yeah. it was an influx in a matter of minutes. it was a lot of parents coming in.

that's when they started blocking off the road. >> nobody really knows what's going on. but you know what you've seen at that point. >> right. very few parents were there to witness what i had seen, those three little girls, because they had been transported by ambulance, far before the parents had arrived. the rest of the students remained in the school. >> at what point -- how long was it before you started to see some of the kids coming out of the classrooms? >> i would say it was about ten minutes later. this is just where i want to really, really emphasize the great job done by the newtown state police, the connecticut police, everyone involved. they did a fantastic job getting the children out in ang orderly fashion. i cannot thank them enough and give them enough credit. bless them. >> because that's their friends, their family members potentially, too. for you, is that the longest ten minutes of your life? >> it was by far the longest ten minutes of my life. i can't put into words, you

know. franticly searching for my sister. even when the kids saw me, i think i might have traumatized them more. i was so scared myself. >> i'm a little sister, i have older brothers, i was used to them when i was little being picked on, i can only imagine when you saw your sister, did she ever get quite that big a hug from you? >> never before. again, i can't give enough credit to also the teachers. there are so many teachers we're hearing about on the news. fantastic job. i can't emphasize how proud i am of sandy hook school. that's our culture. as a sand i had hook alumni myself, i can't emphasize how great the school is, how great the teachers are. i firmly believe that they are the reason i was able to hug my sister so tightly. >> did she tell you what happened in her classroom? >> you know, she didn't want to give great details, as you understand, she's still

traumatized. according to her, the intercom system had come on early in the morning. she was in art class. when the intercom system came on, she heard a scream and bullets flying. immediately they went into lockdown. i think, you know that was another part of the principal's heroic actions. she really sacrificed her life to go into the hallway, to go on to the intercom and tell the students, advise the students there's something wrong. so you know, just another hero in the making that represents our town. >> we heard a lot of amazing stories about how teachers did handle their classrooms and things they did to keep the kids calm, get organized and led them out of the building. did your sister tell you anything about how her teacher handled it? >> my sister said mrs. gundy, the art teacher at sandy hook school, handled the children well. she called the police. again, fantastic job on the

teacher's part. the teachers, a lot of teachers called their students today, which i found an incredible thing to do. aga again, it represents our culture as newtown. we're a tight-knit community. >> how is your sister doing today? >> well, she's pretty scared. you know, she doesn't like going to the bathroom by herself. she is traumatized, too. i think we all are a little here. we don't get this stuff, we're all in shock. but i'm confident, it's christmas, i'm confident we can make it through. >> how are you doing? what you saw is something no one should see, let alone a teenager? >> was horrifying. it's very -- mentally paralyzing. i can't put into words. you know, i haven't been able to sleep. last night, my -- i dropped a bottal from my b

bottle from my bed, woke up crying. i'm taking this hard, but i'm confident we can make it through this. >> what are you and your friends talking about? it's important at a time like this, especially someone who has been through what you have been through, to talk to people. if you need to, to talk to a professional. >> right. i have not seeked professional help yet. i'm not sure i will. i want to clear my mind first. do my own mental analyzization and see from there. i had friends chat with me from overseas, locally. ask me if i'm okay. you know, again, to them i want to say thank you. again, we'll make it through this. >> well, you're a remarkable young man. your sister is lucky to have you as a big brother. >> thank you. >> it's been so impressive to be here and see this community. all the things you say, i'm glad you had a chance to say them. thank you for coming on. good luck to you. >> appreciate it. >> we are getting the first

eyewitness accounts of the shooting. one of the teachers who helped her students survive the massacre talked to nbc's matt lauer just moments ago. >> i was in my classroom with my students. we were having something called morning meeting, which is the way we begin our day. my kids were involved in an activity that's a part of the morning meeting a little game, when i heard -- heard what sounded like a popping sound. and then some noises coming over the loud speaker, sounded like weeping noises. and really wasn't sure what was going on at that point. then realized that we were in some sort of a situation. so i gathered my class over to -- my coat closet area which is what we practice in our lockdown. and had them sit on the floor. i immediately locked the classroom door, shielded the

window. and then closed the blinds on my classroom windows. then before i went and sat with the kids, and as i was doing this i was reassuring them, it's okay. everything is fine. >> were they very upset? >> at that time they weren't. they weren't very aware of what was going on at that point. they knew they heard noises. they knew something was going on, but they weren't very upset. i sat with them and i told them, you know, we'll sit together. we'll stay right here, and be safe. and i told them that i loved them. and that they would be okay. i then turned around and actually started to push a couple of desks and tables around the kids, creating almost like a barricade, hopefully to help protect the kids, but also hopefully to protect anybody from seeing through the blinds

where we were. and then i just stayed with them. we talked. i reassured them they would be okay. this was lengthy. they were hearing screaming out in the hall. they were hearing more popping sounds, gunshot sounds. and the sounds over the loud speaker. and they began to get upset. and i just kept reassuring them that they would be okay. that they were loved, that their mommies and daddies would be there soon. and that we had them. we are had them. we would hold them tight. and they did continue to cry. but they were able to hold it together. they were -- they were amazing. they were quiet when i needed them to be, and they held each other. and they were perfect.

they were perfect. >> very moving and heart felt words of third grade teacher, mrs. sullivan. coming up next, michael will join me with the latest information on the gunman, 20-year-old adam lanza. you are watching continuing coverage of the connecticut elementary school tragedy live here on msnbc.

we are back live in newtown, connecticut. i'm on a hill opposite the volunteer fire station where a lot of the investigators have come together over the last 36 hours or so. they are telling us more. we are learning more about the gunman, 20-year-old adam lanza.

he forced his way into sandy hook elementary school friday morning, killing 20 children and 6 adults before turning the gun on himself. law enforcement officials believe lanza took two handguns and an assault-style rifle to the gun, all of them legally purchased by his mom, lanza. early reports indicated nancy lanza was a teacher at sandy hook elementary, now information reveals she had no link to the school. her son adam shot and killed her before heading to the school. lanza's aunt, marsha lanza, had not seen his nephew since he was 3, but did keep in touch with nancy lanza, and she offered insight into their home life earlier today. >> i know she eventually wound up home-schooling him. she battled the school district. in what capacity, i'm not

certa certain, if it was behavior or learning disabilities. he was a bright boy. >> i'm joined now by michael, what else do we know about the lanza family tonight? >> as you mentioned, we know nancy lanza was this avid gun collector. one friend described her as passionate about it. at time she's would take both her sons for practice at these shooting ranges. we do know adam lanza had -- there were reports that he tried to purchase a semi-automatic rifle at a local dick's sporting goods store, just this week. and the sale did not go through.

we have not confirmed that net, but while he was not able to use his own guns, he was able to draw on the weapons of his mother, and used one of those weapons to kill his mother. the details we learned today about the shooting itself make this crime more inexplicable and horrific. the disclosure in particular from the medical examiner that he didn't use the handguns to shoot those children, he used the semi-automatic assault rifle to shoot those first graders. that's an awesome amount of fire power to use against helpless children. one federal law enforcement official i spoke to described the crime scene as unbelievably gruesome. >> and we heard about just, you know, earlier, the brother of one of the students at that

school talk about the little girl who came out of that school covered in blood. you can only imagine what it was like for them in there. we're starting to piece together a profile of adam lanza. in many ways, michael, it sounds like some of the other shooters we have covered before, that he was quiet, but intelligent. in this case, we're told he didn't even have his picture in the yearbook. he was camera shy. what else do we know about him? >> and that friend of nancy lanza's did say that she was very concerned about her son. that he was a recluse, he never wanted to leave the house, she was concerned about his stability, talked about it. as far as this friend knew, had not sought or gotten help, psychological help for him. one other aspect of this that is

disturbing or potentially disturbing is federal investigators believe he may have been planning this for some time. we spoke to a local shooting range owner who said he was visited just last night by federal law enforcement agents from the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms and they were looking for evidence that adam lanza had been to local shooting ranges in the months before this attack, apparently practicing it or possibly planning for it. that adds a whole other dimension to this that it might not have been a crime of passion, as it were, but something carefully planned and executed by adam lanza. >> the one question, of course, that everyone continues to ask, and that we don't have a good answer for, as you said some of what we're learning is making it all the more puzzling is why? what about a motive? we have gotten conflicting information on that as well,

michael. >> exactly. there had been some reports that he may have had some sort of altercation at the school prior to this. with some of the staff members. i did talk to one federal law enforcement official who said investigators were looking to see whether he had some connection to the school, whether he had done some volunteer work or tried to do some work at the school. we don't know. that was a theory that they were pursuing. but, you know, absent that, it's very hard to come up with a clear motive for why this young man would have done this. >> michael isikoff, always good to talk to you. thank you very much. i can certainly tell you from being out in the community today that these folks are not focusing on the gunman, they're focusing on helping those who survived this, especially the family of the victims. as we came in tonight, this area is blocked off, it is mostly for

investigators and a few members of the media. so where the blockade is, people, members of the community have been coming in, putting candles, flowers. it's one of the places where a memorial has popped up. even as we speak, there is a mass going on at the local catholic church. and that later on they are going to have their annual live nativity and it is in honor of the victims of this shooting. coming up next, we'll have some of the stories of the heroes of yesterday's shooting here in newtown. you're watching our continuing live coverage of the connecticut elementary school tragedy here on msnbc.

welcome back live. we're beginning to learn babout the many acts of bravy yesterday. victoria soto taught first grade. the 27-year-old died protecting her students. soto's cousin described her heroics earlier.

>> she was trying to shield, get her children into a closet, protect them from harm. and by doing that put herself between the gunman and the children. that's when she was tragically shot and killed. >> and she wasn't the only one. principal dawn hocksprung was a beloved figure at the school. officials say she died trying to overtake the gunman. erica hill has more on hocksprung's heroic act and the close-knit town. >> reporter: this connecticut town still largely in shock. the sights and sounds of friday's tragedy overwhelming. moments in time capturing the grief, fear and loss. >> i say there are 20 brighter stars in the heaven and every christmas light in newtown. >> reporter: a town and nation in mourning for the 26 killed. 20 of them children. but there's also appreciation for the heroes, the teachers and staff at sandy hook elementary who helped protected so many.

>> we're a pretty small town. you know, we usually don't get this stuff. >> reporter: there's still much to learn about the lives cut tragically short. among the victims, the school's principal, dawn hochsprung. >> we came here for the schools, blue-ribbon schools. this is something that just does not happen. >> reporter: a mother and stepmother to five girls, hochsprung ran towards the gunfire along with the school psychologist, they never returned. >> how do you recover from something like this? how do you help a child walk into the front of that school the next day they have class? >> reporter: the 47-year-old took over as principal in 2010, she was described as energetic, engaged and dedicated. earlier this year, a back to school tweet that for many now has new meaning. welcoming our kinders this morning. 74 new opportunities to inspire

lifelong learning. >> i want to bring in mark boughton, mayor of nearby danbury, connecticut. >> you knew dawn? >> i worked in the same school system, an absolute dynamo in understanding the kids needs. we were disappointed when she left, we thought we could keep her, but she had bigger and better things. >> when you heard she risked and lost her own life trying to save the students of that elementary school, was that the dawn you knew? >> absolutely. as an educator, we're all trained to run towards the noise, run towards the problems. it's part of our -- the number one responsibility we have is to maintain the health, safety and

welfare of our students under our direction. dawn epitomized that. she cared deeply about her kids. she became her kids. owned everything about them. doesn't surprise me at all or today that she's being described in heroic terms. >> none of us knows how we would react under a terrifying circumstance, shots ringing out. you are terrified. and yet it seemed like her own safety, because it had to only be a split second decision she made. her instinct was to go and do something. >> it just shows the intrinsic feelings that she had about protecting her kids. the maternal nature, the professionalism she showed. you're right, nobody knows how they'll react in that situation, you could have frozen, dived underneath a desk, she didn't do that.

she was a leader. stepped forward, attacked the problem head on. >> as someone who knows education who has worked with so many people for so many years involved in the field of education and helping make young people smarter and have their futures be brighter, when this happens in your own community and you've heard about it happening before, what goes through your mind? >> look, there's a much broader, larger policy discussion that needs to happen here. we need to have a discussion about guns in this country who has access to them, how they have access to them and a profound discussion about our mental health services and how we're handling mental health. out-patient services don't work. people don't go to their appointments or take their medication. in our city we have people who walk the streets, refuse treatment because they don't think they're ill. the current system we have doesn't work and it creates a perfect storm of easy access to weapons and many people with serious menial heal mental heal.

no sane person would do what was done here yesterday. >> you do have these big picture issues, the whole idea of gun control and mental health will be discussed, debated, maybe some changes, maybe not. but then you have immediate concerns. we are already hearing about survivors who are saying they don't want to go back to school. you can imagine a teacher who would say they don't want to go back to school. it does seem that so many of these have happened in schools, how do you make students, teachers feel comfortable in that kind of environment? >> one of the number one responsibilities that first selectman lodra has here, she will focus in on what we're focusing in on, having a large police presence when we reopen schools to do a lot of communication to the parents, to the administrators. you need to review all of your evacuation plans, active shooter plans.

this is the number one fear, what happened yesterday, for every educator in the country, having an active shooter in the building, making sure your children, the staff, everybody is drilled. the drills done in this building worked. it could have been a lot worse had it not been for the her rowrow heroic efforts of the staff. there may be kids that say i can't go back in that building, that's understandable. >> obviously this is hitting so close to home. are you hearing from residents, are your educators hearing from parents what are they saying? >> we already set up a protocol for next week's opening. we will meet tomorrow night at 7:00 with administrators, walk through all of our active shooter plans, evacuation plans, then do a talk to the parts, then individual parental

meetings with each of the building principals to review our plans. at the end of the day, we're ready. but i also want to emphasize, some of these things, there's no way to plan for. there's no way to plan for somebody's insane showing up with a bunch of weapons no matter how much security you have. you have to be ready to deal with that. >> i have been on a number of these shooting stories. one of the things that has always struck me, it's consistent, the way communities come together and the way communities across the country reach out. what has your experience been the last 24 hours? >> i've gotten calls from all over the world. it's heart warming, wonderful. >> and it helps, doesn't it? >> it does. i knew people in that building. i knew lauren russeau, she was a danbury person, lived in our city. i knew the principal to hear from other people to get their empathy and sympathy is

important, but newtown needs its space now. they need to understand they'll never be able to process what happened in the sense of it's a sane thing that happened, but they need space to come together and gather together. >> mayor mark boughton, so good of you to come over tonight. thank you very much. good luck to everybody in this community. up next, why did the gunman take so many lives before taking his own? we'll talk to criminologist james fox and clint van zandt to discuss what could be in the mind of that killer. this holiday, share everything.

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>> it's heartbreaking.

i'm speechless to hear something had happened like this around here. it's always going stay in this town. small town. everybody will keep it in their head, back of their head. even the little young ones, they'll be afraid to step in school now because of what happened. and just, you know, my prayers and everything goes out to the families that lost their loved ones. >> welcome back. in the wake of the newtown elementary school tragedy, people are anxious to find out why. why adam lanza took so many innocent lives before taking his own. look at these numbers. in 2011 more than 32,000 people in the u.s. were killed by guns. of those 32,000, roughly 18,000 were suicides. it's a little known fact, but the majority of gun deaths in the u.s. every year are suicides. when high-profile mass shootings occur, many of them are really murder-suicides. so the question tonight is why do these murderers feel the need

to kill so many others before taking their own lives? for more, i'm joined by criminologist james fox, also a professor of criminal justice at northeastern university, and msnbc criminal analyst, clint van zandt, a former fbi profiler. good evening. james, let me start with you. i'm trying to make that leap. obviously you have a number of people who have these terrible issues and decide in that split second to their their own lives. what differentiates them, james from someone who before they do that would kill so many other people? >> it's knot a split-second decision. these tend to be well-planned for days, weeks, months. the difference between somebody who takes their own life and those who kill others and then take their own life, the suicide

is people are depressed, life is so unhappy. but mass murderers blame other people about that. they don't feel inadequate. they blame the family, workplace, perhaps society for the misery they're suffering. they feel like they're victims of injustice, they want to get even. why kill children? well, where is society most vulnerable? where will it hurt the most? where will he get the greatest payback? unfortunately by slaughtering innocent children who are congregated together at a school. so it's an issue of getting even and then leaving this world, but making sure others come along with him. >> and, clint n this case we're hearing what we heard in so many of these cases that you and i have talked about before. you have someone who may have been described as intelligent but also a loaner, in this case he didn't even have his picture in the yearbook. it says in there he's camera

shy. people said he never tried to do anything to draw attention to himself. obviously this is 360 degrees from that. how? why? what changes? >> you think about how challenged it was raising him. there are people all across this country who have -- or the parents of children that are challenged in a number of different ways. these parents don't know where to turn to. the last thing in the world i want to paint a picture of this guy anything other than a mass murder. i saw an interview of somebody today who baby sat for him, and his mother said whatever you do, don't leave the room. don't go to the bathroom. stay right here with him. that suggests he's had challenges that have existed for years that his mother, his family was aware of. part of the challenge of society is how do we identify these people at risk and the mother was able to do that, and then

how do we help them before, as jim says, they act out in this terrible manner. chris, one more real quick thing, i hear people all day today say we have to put a police officer in every school to stop this. chris, there are about 125 to 150,000 schools in america, there's about 650 police officers, the numbers don't work. we have to find better ways than trying to throw police officers and metal detectors at this problem. >> columbine had a police officer. columbine had surveillance cameras. sure, it may make people feel safer, but these guys are determined. they will find a way to get their revenge no matter what impediments we put in their way. doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but let's try to keep this in perspective. as rare as the event is, as much suffering as we're seeing, we're not talking about an epidemic

where schools are under siege. >> less than 1% of homicides in the united states take place in and around schools, but nothing hurts us more than what we've witnessed the last two days. >> is there a way, clint, when you look at this, that's what you've done, you studied it as a profiler. there are a lot of people, thousands of people, young people who have issues, young people who feel somehow left out, and people who have a genuinely mental health issue, but how do you separate those people from someone who might do something like this? >> to me, we have to start addressing these issues. i can think back as far as columbine when we talked about. one thing i always wanted to see was counselors, behaviorists assigned in grade school, so we can take children who are 5, 6, 7, 8 years old who are trying to develop conflict resolution skills. we don't want them to turn to movies and television and see

violence as a conflict resolution skill. we want to help them develop other ways. part of it is going to be education in the school. we don't have an accurate test -- jim, help me here -- we don't have an accurate test that can say absolutely this person will be depressed, this person will be tomorrow's mass murderer. but we can identify people who are challenged and try to help them. >> that's right. there are warning signs, but unfortunately they only become crystal clear in the aftermath, when we look back. there are people who are unhappy. millions of people are depressed and blame other people for their problems. but they won't go on a rampage what we should do, of course, is reach out and help them the best we can. it may not prevent the next mass murder, but in the process of trying t will enhance the well-being of lots of people around us. >> absolutely. >> james fox, clint van zandt, thank you for your insights. >> thanks. when we return, how does the

newtown community recover, even start to recover from yesterday's tragic events? dave cullen who chronicled the aftermath of columbine will join me. you're watching msnbc's continuing live coverage of the tragedy in connecticut. [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus presents the cold truth.

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>> quiet, solemn. you know, very depressing. a lot went on. you know, you feel for the community, all the people. the parents. children. devastating. >> welcome back. following the tragic newtown

school shooting, the tight-knit community is struggling to come to grips with losing so many of their own. at the same time the national narrative of this tragedy is being written minute by minute, details of the shooter, the gunman and victims will be a part of the american conversation for a long time to come. in the early hours of this horrific event, it's important to try to get facts straight, of course. if america is going to learn anything from this tragedy, we need to understand how it happened, why it happened. for more on this i'm joined by dave cullen, author of "columbine." dave, it's good to see you. after columbine people thought they had it figured out. i was there. so much was reported in the early hours and days that turned out not to be true. we're starting to see some of that here, for example. early on, we were told the mother of the shooter was a teacher, now they're saying she had no affiliation with the

school whatsoever. this doesn't surprise you, i take it? >> no, it doesn't. after columbine, i guess it was about two and a half days after, we had the whole thing figured out. everybody in the country knew why it happened. it was two loaner out cast goths from the trench coat mafia who went on a revenge rampage to get revenge on behalf of the trench coat mafia. and everybody understood that the media was everywhere. it was on the front page of the "new york times," everything else, without questioning it. unfortunately most people still believe that today, even though within a year we learned not one single thing i said there was true. every one of those crucial elements was wrong. but we took little bits of data that we had early on and drew conclusions. oh, the mom was a school

teacher, so it was a workplace related thing. we had a whole scenario, which made sense. that's the thing with these myths, we take -- there's always a kernel of knowledge, some truth, a real element there. usually a couple pieces, these fit together, it makes sense. it's this. it turns out, no, like murder mystery novels, there's a lot of red herrings that have nothing to do with it. we have to be calm and wait. >> of course we talked to investigators about this. the information they're giving us is the best information they have. it's very difficult when someone has been through -- when i say someone, an entire community has been through such a traumatic experience. it's almost like if you talk to any investigator they say eyewitness accounts are suspect. people who have been through a trauma, asking them questions, trying to get to the bottom of things at a time like that is

often the most difficult time. so the challenge for investigators and everyone else, we want the answers but they're seldom easy. >> no, they're not. you hit on a lot of great things. witness testimony is so unreliable, especially compared to the common conceptions about it. and also in the situation, where there's a shooting, often bullets are ricocheting around, maybe bouncing off a wall an you think the shot is coming from that way because you heard it hit a wall and bounce back, so you look back, you see somebody who looks suspicious, you are sure that is the shooter, you're 100% sure. other people see something over here. also memories get jumbled. we think in our mind we have this memory which is sequential. our brain doesn't work that way. our brain is accumulating all sorts of different things going on, then later puts them into the order that we think happens. sort of assembles them into a story that makes sense.

when it can't make sense, it bridges the gap and sort of fixes things. that's how memory is working. we don't realize we're doing that without knowing it. as you head, the good -- the good element of something like this, there are so many witnesses, so when they interview, you know, 50, 100 different people, and put all the stories together, you seat commonalties. you know, they're very good at knowing, you know what to filter out. okay, these are outlyers. you know, so they can get there. yeah. also -- the media has been doing a good job, i don't normally do this on air, but i've been watching you all weekend and some of my colleagues commented earlier this afternoon what a great job you are doing, just sort of staying level headed about it, not jumping to conclusions, gathering information. it's great to report information as we get it. sometimes it turns out to be wrong and we need to correct it,

but keeping an open mind about motives, and not getting stuck on an answer too soon. >> well, i appreciate that. one thing that columbine taught me was that families are listening. in many cases they want information as much as anyone else who is watching, sometimes obviously more. they have such a vested interest. have you found, dave, getting ans does help with the healing process for those families? >> it really does. they tend to hate the word closure. to them they hear that as getting over it or getting better. there's no final answer to, you know, make them whole. but a huge number of the families have told me how much it did help them to get there. cave sanders daughter told me after 11 years, she read my book and knowing the details of it, she had not known -- it helps a

lot to put it together and understand. >> dave cullen, author of "columbine" thank you very much. it's so good to talk to you tonight. >> thanks for having me on. >> we will continue our live coverage from the connecticut elementary school shooting live on msnbc. stay with us. louisiana or florida, they're gonna love it. shaul, your alabama hospitality is incredible. thanks, karen. love your mississippi outdoors. i vote for your florida beaches, dawn. bill, this louisiana seafood is delicious. we're having such a great year on the gulf, we've decided to put aside our rivalry. now is the perfect time to visit anyone of our states. the beaches and waters couldn't be more beautiful. take a boat ride, go fishing or just lay in the sun. we've got coastline to explore and wildlife to photograph. and there's world class dining with our world famous seafood. so for a great vacation this year, come to the gulf. its all fabulous but i give florida the edge.

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